How many gears are too many gears?

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

I love my 4 speed auto..you can still hear the shift and feel the gear shift. Im generally not fussed about driving an auto or manual transmission but if i have to drive a car in which i cannot feel the gears change, essentially mimicking a CVT just revving at the same revs droning, i will go postal!
To me, the simple guy, reckons probably 5 or 6 (in both MT and AT).
I cannot trade driving enjoyment for fuel economy!

Having said that, i still get 9's on the highway with my 4sp BTR... happy days

First time I've ever heard 'driving enjoyment' and BTR in the same context!
Whilst I hate CVTs, I definitely won't miss that "whooooop...clunk" on takeoff

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

First time I've ever heard 'driving enjoyment' and BTR in the same context!
Whilst I hate CVTs, I definitely won't miss that "whooooop...clunk" on takeoff

Cmon they arent that bad! I wish the "manual" shifting was quicker but the BTR still has four recognisable gears, not CVT like single rpm lifeless droning
Not to mention all associated costs (servicing, parts, replacements) are much cheaper than the ZF 6sp and such!

[Jack960]

Depends on the ratio's and how fast the box can change gears.

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by K93George

I still vote direct drive eletric motors are the way to go, one for each wheel. No gears.

Yup, once the price and range gets sorted I will be going electric.

[my_gxl]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Cmon they arent that bad! I wish the "manual" shifting was quicker but the BTR still has four recognisable gears, not CVT like single rpm lifeless droning
Not to mention all associated costs (servicing, parts, replacements) are much cheaper than the ZF 6sp and such!

The 6sp hill decent change down feature is the only reason I gave in to an auto once my knee starting giving me trouble with using a clutch. I have driven a 4sp auto, and am not a fan, although it worked ok mostly because of the 3.46 diff ratio.

Stronger gears like titanium will work when they get smaller, but then the cost rises. Planetary gear sets don't need to be massive though.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by JC

Size. I have assumed (possibly incorrectly) that an 8 speed transmission would be somewhat larger and heavier than a 6 speed. If that is true, then the extra gears could simply be required to overcome the extra weight of the larger transmission, which means the whole exercise of more gears is pointless. If a 4 cyl 1.5 litre engine performs at it's most economical with a 6 speed auto behind it, and by fitting an 8 speed there is no benefit to fuel consumption or performance, then why fit the 8 speed at all? Except if the manufacturer and it's potential customers are looking for some weird form of bragging rights ie "My car has 8 gears" - to which my reply would be "DILLIGAF".

The larger cars could have more gears with closer ratios to maximise fuel efficiency, and being larger, could carry the extra size and weight better. Of course, if there is no increased performance and/or no fuel economy saving by fitting a 7, 8 or 9 speed auto over a 6 speed, then doing so is again a waste of time. Sometimes more is not better - it is just more.

The ZF 6 speed was actually smaller and lighter than the 5 speed it replaced, so don't always assume it will be bigger and heavier. More modern design can usually overcome this.

[irish2]

No different to the gillette, gazillion blade razor, that does the same job as a twin blade cheapo.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The ZF 6 speed was actually smaller and lighter than the 5 speed it replaced, so don't always assume it will be bigger and heavier. More modern design can usually overcome this.

True, but the actual gearset will need to lengthen or widen (depending on design) to give more ratios, so should end up being a larger box, but as you say, not always! Still, unless there is a real reason for more gears such as increased performance/acceleration/better fuel economy, then more gears is just a sales gimmick (to me).

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by JC

True, but the actual gearset will need to lengthen or widen (depending on design) to give more ratios, so should end up being a larger box, but as you say, not always! Still, unless there is a real reason for more gears such as increased performance/acceleration/better fuel economy, then more gears is just a sales gimmick (to me).

More gears definately means better acceleration and economy. Thats one of the key drivers of the extra gears, economy, because it has become so much of an issue over the last 5-10 years.

But there is definately a point where the extra gears are going to add too much size and they will have to draw a line somewhere and say we can't go any further. They can get away with it more on small engined cars as they can make the gears small because they don't need to handle much torque, but on bigger engines that make lots of torque they will need to keep the gear size up to handle it.

[FGII-XR6]

you need to understand how an auto works , extra gear changes can be acheived with no more physical gears using more bands and clutches as autos use plaintary gears the way you drive some and stall others gives different ratios.
sorry if this is hard to understand but although I understand the principal it's hard to put into a few words

Originally Posted by JC

Size. I have assumed (possibly incorrectly) that an 8 speed transmission would be somewhat larger and heavier than a 6 speed. If that is true, then the extra gears could simply be required to overcome the extra weight of the larger transmission, which means the whole exercise of more gears is pointless. If a 4 cyl 1.5 litre engine performs at it's most economical with a 6 speed auto behind it, and by fitting an 8 speed there is no benefit to fuel consumption or performance, then why fit the 8 speed at all? Except if the manufacturer and it's potential customers are looking for some weird form of bragging rights ie "My car has 8 gears" - to which my reply would be "DILLIGAF".

The larger cars could have more gears with closer ratios to maximise fuel efficiency, and being larger, could carry the extra size and weight better. Of course, if there is no increased performance and/or no fuel economy saving by fitting a 7, 8 or 9 speed auto over a 6 speed, then doing so is again a waste of time. Sometimes more is not better - it is just more.

[Hayden1]

I drive a 7spd auto daily and it shifts like there's no tomorrow but it just can't make it's mind up between 1st and 2nd when you are idling along in traffic plus some other annoying things I could go on about but won't.

I think 6 gears is just about perfect - if not too much. I reckon the 4spd in the falcon is sufficient but only because it has enough torque to push it.

[sirweasle]

I'm quite content with my 2 speed powerglide.

But on the flip side. I find 6 speeds autos very smooth, and in the range rover sport TDI, HOLY COW the box is pretty amazing.

But, i have absolutely no complaints with the 4 speed auto in the AU... and what ever other models that same box is in. i think it's just as smooth as the newer boxes, but could do with an overdrive. Would like to be able to cruise on the highway under 2K revs.

Just saying...

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Cmon they arent that bad! I wish the "manual" shifting was quicker but the BTR still has four recognisable gears, not CVT like single rpm lifeless droning
Not to mention all associated costs (servicing, parts, replacements) are much cheaper than the ZF 6sp and such!

I'm really, really not a fan of the 4spd box haha...
The 4 speed manual in my 69 kombi is nicer for every day use

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Cmon they arent that bad! I wish the "manual" shifting was quicker but the BTR still has four recognisable gears, not CVT like single rpm lifeless droning
Not to mention all associated costs (servicing, parts, replacements) are much cheaper than the ZF 6sp and such!

It's probably one of the better ones for it's era, and pottering around at 60-70km/hr it's fine, but first is too tall and the overdrive gear is way, way too low. Plus the power/economy mode thing is completely useless, unless you want your fuel consumption to go through the roof.

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by Werd.

I'm really, really not a fan of the 4spd box haha...
The 4 speed manual in my 69 kombi is nicer for every day use

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

It's probably one of the better ones for it's era, and pottering around at 60-70km/hr it's fine, but first is too tall and the overdrive gear is way, way too low. Plus the power/economy mode thing is completely useless, unless you want your fuel consumption to go through the roof.

Gee, so many 4sp haters!

Yeah i remember the 4sp manual in my 83 Subaru..was good except the highway revs haha. But the BTR is fine! First is too long i agree but overdrive isnt toooooo bad. Still return 9's on the highway, it pulls up hills like a freight train...im happy

60 - 70kph, im still in third as i keep overdrive for over 75kph. Much more
responsive this way without destroying economy So its just fine for me!
Keep it in "power" mode so its not in a high gear too early causing laboring thus more fuel used. Also more rev happy and better to drive.

Nothing wrong with the 4sp

[duaned]

Originally Posted by JC

Still, unless there is a real reason for more gears such as increased performance/acceleration/better fuel economy, then more gears is just a sales gimmick (to me).

Bet you wouldn't be stating this if your 2005 Territory had a ZF 6 speed self shifter in it! Personally owning Fords with the old BTR and the ZF, the ZF is miles ahead and I like the spread of gears. It makes the changes feel seemless and smooth.

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Nothing wrong with the 4sp

Click for image

It's dusty because I don't drive it anymore, the 4 speed being the reason why

I drive it maybe once a month because I have a 5 speed manual DD

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by jaydee

Now in the last few years we have ventured into 6 speed territory,

Where have you been?

Six speed auto boxes have been around for 12 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_6HP26_transmission

7 speed autos have been around since 2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7G-Tronic

And Chrysler have just released an 8 speed auto. Thats 8 gears!!!

Eight speed autos have been around since 2007:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_L...F40%29#Refresh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_A_transmission#AAxx

GM and Ford recently announce they will work together on developing 9 and 10 speed auto boxes:

http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/gm-...icle-1.1171900

Get with the times.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Gee, so many 4sp haters!

Yeah i remember the 4sp manual in my 83 Subaru..was good except the highway revs haha. But the BTR is fine! First is too long i agree but overdrive isnt toooooo bad. Still return 9's on the highway, it pulls up hills like a freight train...im happy

60 - 70kph, im still in third as i keep overdrive for over 75kph. Much more
responsive this way without destroying economy So its just fine for me!
Keep it in "power" mode so its not in a high gear too early causing laboring thus more fuel used. Also more rev happy and better to drive.

Nothing wrong with the 4sp

whooooop crunch slush clunk slush! That's the BTR in a nutshell

I can't stand the fricken anymore thing to be honest. Going up a moderate hill at 60, it will decide to shift into third at the bottom of the hill. Then as you climb and lose speed, it will suddenly kick back to second, build up speed, and then slush into third again, and thus the cycle continues until you get to the top of the hill. Drives me nuts, make up your mind you stupid thing! '3' mode is good for hills because it stops it from running away when going down a hill, and keeps it in the right gear to power up some very steep hills with no effort. But it's useless on flat roads because it will shift back to second every time you let go of the gas pedal! Power mode is no good for me because it destroys fuel economy and I drive like a gramps, so it makes takeoffs even slower.

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

whooooop crunch slush clunk slush! That's the BTR in a nutshell

I can't stand the fricken anymore thing to be honest. Going up a moderate hill at 60, it will decide to shift into third at the bottom of the hill. Then as you climb and lose speed, it will suddenly kick back to second, build up speed, and then slush into third again, and thus the cycle continues until you get to the top of the hill. Drives me nuts, make up your mind you stupid thing! '3' mode is good for hills because it stops it from running away when going down a hill, and keeps it in the right gear to power up some very steep hills with no effort. But it's useless on flat roads because it will shift back to second every time you let go of the gas pedal! Power mode is no good for me because it destroys fuel economy and I drive like a gramps, so it makes takeoffs even slower.

My favourite one is, puttering around a corner at 30-40KM/H (just enough to make a hit to first painful) in second gear, when suddenly you put your foot down a tad more, CLUNK and 4000+RPM.

Passengers just look at you like you're a retarded hoon or something

[2011G6E]

If you have a ten speed auto, the engine is going to merely rev very little between gears, in fact it will be able to stay in the optimum rev ranges most of the time for economy...most likely the throttle position in most cases will be nothing relative to where you have the accelerator pedal with a fly by wire throttle. It would most likely be a little like the diesel locomotives we have out here with the engine connected to a generator that feeds power to the traction motors. You can be under load in, say, three notches, and whack the throttle up to a full 8 notches, but the engine doesn't rev up until the extra ooomph is actually needed...the computer goes "Nup...you don't need eight notches yet...I don't care where you put the throttle".

Still not sure why that is the greatest thing since sliced bread when in driving characteristics it would be so much like a CVT that it wouldn't be funny...

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by big_landau

i reckon anything over a 5 speed manual and a 4 speed auto is overkill.

Wtf.

My EL is crying out for a 6th gear.

should be sitting at 800-1000 Rpm @ 100Km/h, not 1700....

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Where have you been?

Six speed auto boxes have been around for 12 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_6HP26_transmission

7 speed autos have been around since 2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7G-Tronic



Eight speed autos have been around since 2007:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_L...F40%29#Refresh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_A_transmission#AAxx

GM and Ford recently announce they will work together on developing 9 and 10 speed auto boxes:

http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/gm-...icle-1.1171900

Get with the times.

Thanks for pointing out my ignorance, I will endeavour to keep with the times.
However, the references you refer to are for BMW, Mercedes,Lexus etc, hardly everday cars that Aussies could get their hands on back then.
I was obviously referring to the local market here in Oz where you could get a Ford or Holden with almost as many gears as an Octopus has legs.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by big_landau

i reckon anything over a 5 speed manual and a 4 speed auto is overkill.

Nah, the six speed auto in my ute is fantastic and totally needed for it's good economy.

[DABOSS]

Absolutly loving the 7speed DSG, wouldnt ever purchase another Australian built car thats for sure.

[tankclare]

I will stir the pot and throw some more fuel on the fire.

I'm most likely wrong but wouldnt most of these new cars with 7-8 speed gearboxes be a bit more sluggish when older. I've always been told to use the full rev range of motors when they are pretty fresh so the engine wears in properly and performs better later on in time. Kind of like when people say they baby their new GT but 5 years down the line it doesnt perform as well as some other bloke who wasnt afraid to give his a squirt. Sure all these new gearboxes are alot more fuel efficient as they are nearly idling along at 100km/h but surely it must also have a down side in the long run with engine performance. Its almost like car companies are only trying to mask their engine performance by fitting gearboxes that give people the illusion of power.

Just a thought anyway.

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by tankclare

I will stir the pot and throw some more fuel on the fire.

I'm most likely wrong but wouldnt most of these new cars with 7-8 speed gearboxes be a bit more sluggish when older. I've always been told to use the full rev range of motors when they are pretty fresh so the engine wears in properly and performs better later on in time. Kind of like when people say they baby their new GT but 5 years down the line it doesnt perform as well as some other bloke who wasnt afraid to give his a squirt. Sure all these new gearboxes are alot more fuel efficient as they are nearly idling along at 100km/h but surely it must also have a down side in the long run with engine performance. Its almost like car companies are only trying to mask their engine performance by fitting gearboxes that give people the illusion of power.

Just a thought anyway.

You could have an AU 4 speed and due to the torque never take the engine over 2000RPM.

If you put your foot down in a 8-10 speed auto it's still going to be near the limiter at times, plus I doubt they will do away with manual shifting.

As always, it comes down to the driver.

[jpd80]

Here's a thought, go drive an EA 3-speed auto and then jump straight into a late model Falcon with ZF 6-speed auto.
I'm sure that most people would come away impressed with the difference in performance and fuel economy.

Now, consider the discussion of 9-10 speed autos being far too many ratios and sales gimmicks,
I'm sure that if you tried to sell people on 6-speed auto 25 yeas ago, they would have scoffed too...

[Sprint]

If you want fast, some of the world fastest cars have 2 , maybe 3 or even 1 gear!

even if it took .25 seconds to change gear, 8 gears is 2 seconds of gear changing out of your quater mile.

too many gears is not fast! gears might be your best friend at using the limited power you have or cycling lol but are we to use deisel engines that dont rev and have torque to boot?.

Speaking about torque, look at electric motors, 25000rpm, massive liniar torque that never goes away and one gear to get you there.

Im starting to think 6 speed manuals are a waste, final gear should be 1.1, not .5-1.

total speed can then be made up from wheel size and diff ratio.

Speaking of top gear? what ratio is 8 speed top gear ment to be? some stupid .2 or something?

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by Werd.

Click for image

It's dusty because I don't drive it anymore, the 4 speed being the reason why

I drive it maybe once a month because I have a 5 speed manual DD

Shame on you! Poor AU!! Haha. Id put a T5 in it

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

whooooop crunch slush clunk slush! That's the BTR in a nutshell

I can't stand the fricken anymore thing to be honest. Going up a moderate hill at 60, it will decide to shift into third at the bottom of the hill. Then as you climb and lose speed, it will suddenly kick back to second, build up speed, and then slush into third again, and thus the cycle continues until you get to the top of the hill. Drives me nuts, make up your mind you stupid thing! '3' mode is good for hills because it stops it from running away when going down a hill, and keeps it in the right gear to power up some very steep hills with no effort. But it's useless on flat roads because it will shift back to second every time you let go of the gas pedal! Power mode is no good for me because it destroys fuel economy and I drive like a gramps, so it makes takeoffs even slower.

As you lose speed, dont push the go pedal any harder and itll stay in the same gear, wont lose that much speed!!
Power mode just lets the gears rev out more, so just ease up on the go pedal to keep it under 2K and you'll be right!
Yes i will have an answer for everything