Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Hi All,

Got a 2013 Mazda 6 diesel wagon, bought it 2nd- hand around 18 months ago from a Mazda dealership. It was 3 years old & had just over 50,000km on the clock, and gave us no real trouble for a while. The the DPF light came on, and all hell broke loose. Took it to our local mechanic, who told us he's need to regen the DPF filter. No worries... gives us a call later in the day saying that the filter is crumbling, & there's no way it can be cleaned without destroying it.
So we took it in to Mazda for a possible warranty claim (hopes weren't high, but you never know). The car has less than 75k on the clock, and after interrogating a couple of Mazda staff (including the service manager of the dealership that sold us the car) they agreed that under 75,000km "sounded a bit low", but that the lifespan of the DPF "depended on a variety of factors".
Mazda got back to us today, wanting $13,500 to repair a car we bought 18 months ago for $23,000. They reckon the injectors were pumping "too much fuel" and that was what caused the DPF to fail. Warranty request rejected. So, they've quoted a new DPF for 6 grand, 4 new injectors at around $1,400 a hit, and 3 sensors with another $800 or so in Labour.
Needless to say, they're getting both barrels (figuratively speaking) at start of business tomorrow. But does this sound familiar to anyone else out there? We had no mention of the DPF when we purchased the car, no instructions or recommendations from the dealership as to special driving requirements to prolong the life of the DPF. The first inkling we had that there was anything wrong was the DPF light telling us "you're screwed." And yes, I know there's a section in the manual that tells you to drive above 40km/h at over 2,200 r.p.m. or whatever it stipulates. This car has been driven a lot locally on short school runs, as well as decent half- hour belts every 2nd day on the Highway, so it's been put through a variety of trip times & conditions, at least one of which should be conducive to initiating a regen.
Given that the Mazda CX-5 diesel (which has the same motor as the Mazda 6) had recalls back in 2013 over oil sump overfilling issues, could this possibly be related? It's just an absolute kick in the teeth, as there's no way in hell we have $13k+ to get it fixed and we desperately need the vehicle. I'm thinking a call to the Dept. of Fair Trading might be the eventual course of action, as it appears we've been sold a lemon.

Personally, while I agree in principle with efforts to cut emissions, a DPF is an absolute POS. It's like telling someone to run faster after you've shoved a wet sock down their throat. As soon as this issue gets resolved, I'm getting a bypass pipe & the ECU remapped (purely for racing purposes, of course).
Thanks for any help, advice or feedback.

Almost guarantee it was serviced with incorrect oil. Must be Low SAPS etc and dealers and independents usually aren't fussy about oil.

[ivorya]

Ok,
What I think is funny/concerning,
Nulon has a 5-30W oil that says it's -913-D Ford compliant, however, in the caution section says, not to be used with DPF. The ash content is <1
Penrite has a 5-30W oil that says it's -913-D Ford compliant, has no restriction to DPF. The ash content is >1.

When looking at the specs on these oils, there is a sparrow fart of difference between them.
Both are great aussie company's, which one would you use and why?

[Franco Cozzo]

Penrite one will be called Enviro + or some BS like that for the DPF cars.

[danthefordman]

If anyone can tell me, does a 2014 hilux run a DPF. I know they do in the UK, but can't find anything on the net about Aussie delivered vehicles. My 2014 (Dec2103) hilux does not have the manual regen button as shown on the manual for UK variants, so I am not sure. Would like to get rid of it if I do have one.

[Davehoos]

they have a cat.
DPF is a real problem on the this years models.

[Ben73]

No idea why people buy diesel cars. Yes I mean cars, I understand in larger vehicles.
Few grand more to purchase to save $5 a week in fuel costs.
Then the risk of having to replace a DPF means few more grand down the drain. Unless you are towing or doing lots of highway driving, it's not worth it.
Bit more torque is nice, but turbolag is annoying.

My Grand Cherokee is petrol and I am loving it.
Happy to pay the extra fuel costs for no turbo lag and a quite, smooth engine.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by Ben73

No idea why people buy diesel cars. Yes I mean cars, I understand in larger vehicles.
Few grand more to purchase to save $5 a week in fuel costs.
Then the risk of having to replace a DPF means few more grand down the drain. Unless you are towing or doing lots of highway driving, it's not worth it.
Bit more torque is nice, but turbolag is annoying.

My Grand Cherokee is petrol and I am loving it.
Happy to pay the extra fuel costs for no turbo lag and a quite, smooth engine.

I've got a diesel GC, deliberately bought it for the different driving characterises of the diesel. Initially they had poor throttle response not directly related to turbo lag but there's a TSB that mostly fixes it, love the diesel torque and the perceived fuel economy is a bonus, slightly over a thousand k's/tank urban driving and never had a DPF issue.

Drove a new 3.2 diesel Ranger a few weeks back, that engines rough as guts compared to the Jeeps donk and had crap throttle response/acceleration by comparison too so I can see why you prefer you petrol GC mate.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Kieron

I've got a diesel GC, deliberately bought it for the different driving characterises of the diesel. Initially they had poor throttle response not directly related to turbo lag but there's a TSB that mostly fixes it, love the diesel torque and the perceived fuel economy is a bonus, slightly over a thousand k's/tank urban driving and never had a DPF issue.

Drove a new 3.2 diesel Ranger a few weeks back, that engines rough as guts compared to the Jeeps donk and had crap throttle response/acceleration by comparison too so I can see why you prefer you petrol GC mate.

Drove a 2014 GC diesel and the turbo lag was noticeable. It seamed worse than the Ranger, but that may just have been due to having more power so once the turbo had spooled the difference was even more noticeable. Or maybe it was just the throttle as you were talking about, no idea really it just seamed bad.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Drove a 2014 GC diesel and the turbo lag was noticeable. It seamed worse than the Ranger, but that may just have been due to having more power so once the turbo had spooled the difference was even more noticeable. Or maybe it was just the throttle as you were talking about, no idea really it just seamed bad.

Totally agree with you mate, its one thing I didn't like about mine (MY15) when I got it. Late last year, a TSB vastly improved it, certainly not perfect though. Removing the fairly useless brake hold feature also improved throttle response.

[sgt_doofey]

Almost 11 years down the track and over 202,000kms, our Peugeot 307 2.0HDi is still running fine without any DFP/FAP problems. Haven't even needed to top up the additive yet either which is good as it can be expensive.
We did have a fault come up early on in it's life, depollution system faulty. It turned out to be an EGR sensor which was replaced under warranty. Apart from that, no troubles with the DFP/FAP that is fitted.
We do live out in the country an hour from Adelaide, so the car does get a regular long run, so that's probably why we don't have any issues with it. Our mechanic has said to me in the past that he's seen a few cars in his shop with DFP problems due to only being driven around town doing short drives.

We were never told anything about the DFP when we purchased the car either.

[Tassie f100]

What happens if, like the old cat converters.we just cut them open,tip out the innards and weld them back up again?

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

What happens if, like the old cat converters.we just cut them open,tip out the innards and weld them back up again?

That would make the car totally unroadworthy would'nt it if they did an emissions test on it?

[Tassie f100]

Probably but who has ever had an emissions test done on their car.??

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

What happens if, like the old cat converters.we just cut them open,tip out the innards and weld them back up again?

The way I understand they work is sensing before/after DPF pressures. Once the pressure differential hits a pre determined value, it triggers a re-gen. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a set min value, therefore when you gut the DPF, it will trigger a CEL. I'm sure there's a way to trick the sensors though.

Others with more knowledge may correct me on the above.

Got to be a nice little industry cleaning out DPF's either already existing or
ready for the taking?

Just checked on ebay, a DPF for the current Grand Cherokee is $1,800 in Aus, I was thinking they were $3-4K!

[Vesper Martini]

Can a generic DPF be used? or does it need to be car specific
This company sells aftermarket DPF's one for the Jeep here:
http://www.dpfaustralia.com.au/produ...crd-wk-series/

[Pazuzu]

Well, after 5 weeks and about 50 phone calls later, we got the DPF replaced under post- Warranty. Unbelievable.
I've got a log of every phone call made to Mazda, around 2 weeks of not being able to get through to the relevant case manager, case managers being changed, case manager "away from desk at the moment" or "in training for the next couple of days"- must've been training for the 100m sprint away from the phone. Followed by another 2 weeks of being told that the delay was due to the dealership who actually had the vehicle not doing the second engine scan that was requested.
I suspect the whole airbag recall made them just say "bugger it- replace the dpf & we'll call it a day," as I suspect the costs of impending recalls will dwarf my claim.

Interesting to note: the original report from Mazda was that the DPF had failed due to "excessive fuel delivery" from a faulty injector. They did sweet bugger- all about the injectors, and just replaced the dpf and a flow sensor. Surely this is just kicking the can down the road? we've got a 2 year/ 40,000 km Warranty on the new DPF, and if a faulty injector killed the last DPF before 74,000 km then I can't see this one lasting long at all.
I guess I'll have to give them a call and point this out to them, and advise them it's in their best interests to replace the injectors. But my overall impression of Mazda is that they don't actually look at any information that's given to them. I wrote a massive email with a stack of questions that nobody has deigned to reply to. The initial quote was quite clear that the injectors were the problem, and the DPF was just a casualty, but when I hit them up about the injectors their response seemed more like "we're giving you the DPF; isn't that enough? You should be really grateful." They also stated that they had no information to indicate there was anything wrong with the injectors, which boggles the mind.
So there's a second battle with Mazda looming, but at least we've got the car back for now. That was a rotten bloody 5 weeks.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Probably but who has ever had an emissions test done on their car.??

Me, when some lovely neighbour dobbed me in for loud exhaust to the (at the time) RTA.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Well, after 5 weeks and about 50 phone calls later, we got the DPF replaced under post- Warranty. Unbelievable.
I've got a log of every phone call made to Mazda, around 2 weeks of not being able to get through to the relevant case manager, case managers being changed, case manager "away from desk at the moment" or "in training for the next couple of days"- must've been training for the 100m sprint away from the phone. Followed by another 2 weeks of being told that the delay was due to the dealership who actually had the vehicle not doing the second engine scan that was requested.
I suspect the whole airbag recall made them just say "bugger it- replace the dpf & we'll call it a day," as I suspect the costs of impending recalls will dwarf my claim.

Interesting to note: the original report from Mazda was that the DPF had failed due to "excessive fuel delivery" from a faulty injector. They did sweet bugger- all about the injectors, and just replaced the dpf and a flow sensor. Surely this is just kicking the can down the road? we've got a 2 year/ 40,000 km Warranty on the new DPF, and if a faulty injector killed the last DPF before 74,000 km then I can't see this one lasting long at all.
I guess I'll have to give them a call and point this out to them, and advise them it's in their best interests to replace the injectors. But my overall impression of Mazda is that they don't actually look at any information that's given to them. I wrote a massive email with a stack of questions that nobody has deigned to reply to. The initial quote was quite clear that the injectors were the problem, and the DPF was just a casualty, but when I hit them up about the injectors their response seemed more like "we're giving you the DPF; isn't that enough? You should be really grateful." They also stated that they had no information to indicate there was anything wrong with the injectors, which boggles the mind.
So there's a second battle with Mazda looming, but at least we've got the car back for now. That was a rotten bloody 5 weeks.

Geesus Christ 5 weeks is way too much and way too many calls.

I would have just told them you want ur money for the car back and that you will never buy another Mazda product again.

And why the **** would'nt they replace the faulty injector while its in the shop?

My brother recently bought a Second hand Toyota Kluger from a Melbourne Toyota dealer and payed something like $1,500 for extended warranty.

A month later they rang and said car needs a recall job done + a service so his wife with 1 month old baby dropped car off on friday morning expecting to have it all done by the afternoon.

Waits all day, gets a phone call that recall and service has been done but the car now needs a new sensor and that sensor will cost $600.

My brother is ****ED OFF.

Payed all that money for extended warranty and now they do this to him.....WTF???

Even Toyota are ruining their reputation these days.

[zdenko]

Originally Posted by CoolBFWagon

Geesus Christ 5 weeks is way too much and way too many calls.

I would have just told them you want ur money for the car back and that you will never buy another Mazda product again.

And why the **** would'nt they replace the faulty injector while its in the shop?

My brother recently bought a Second hand Toyota Kluger from a Melbourne Toyota dealer and payed something like $1,500 for extended warranty.

A month later they rang and said car needs a recall job done + a service so his wife with 1 month old baby dropped car off on friday morning expecting to have it all done by the afternoon.

Waits all day, gets a phone call that recall and service has been done but the car now needs a new sensor and that sensor will cost $600.

My brother is ****ED OFF.

Payed all that money for extended warranty and now they do this to him.....WTF???

Even Toyota are ruining their reputation these days.

First off he may be covered under statutory warranty.
If that car is under 10 years old and has less than 160000kms, has been bought within the last 3 months and has travelled less than 5000km's since purchase.
The dealer wouldn't have a foot to stand on if it all meets that criteria.
And if it does and they don't play ball a simple email to head of Toyota would get the particular dealer into gear quick smart.


Regarding the extended warranty most of those are not from the manufacturers.
They are from actual warranty companies on sold by the dealers just like their very expensive paint protection packs. Most use the same one's and just put their logo on the front of it.
Like a lot of aftersales offers at the dealers, the warranty companies are sharks as well.
The way I see it never bother taking these warranties unless you are a solicitor and have the time to go through all the outs they have in the disclaimers.
Firstly they generally require your car to be serviced every 6 months or 10000km's, once the factory warranty is expired regardless of what the manufacturers manual states. Miss it by a month or two and they will void your extended warranty.
Secondly most of these warranties require you to use the dealer you got it from for the servicing. When you buy a new car and say the factory warranty is 5 years, do you really think you will be servicing the car with them after that 5 year period when you are in the extended warranty period? Especially if you bought it across town for a better deal.
Thirdly they actually have various packages, and generally they are designed to look like they cover a lot, but in reality they do not. For example they will get you by mentioning they cover air-conditioning system components in the easy to read section, but if you read the fine print in the lowest package they will only cover something useless like the on/off button or a fuse.
They basically make sure that anything expensive looks like it is covered, but only the cheap part of the system is covered in reality.
They are not doing anything wrong as all the information is in the book, they are just benefitting from todays lazy, trusting and scared consumer.



And as for the DPF topic.
No issues here in my 1 of 75 2008 Pug 207 HDi Lemans. Think of it as a GTi diesel. It is the only way to get a Pug 3 Door Diesel Sport in Australia.
I did a fair bit of research before buying a used diesel car and Peugeot appeared to have a better reputation regarding diesel engine technology compared to other manufacturers. Their Petrol 1.6L engines shared with BMW Mini is a disaster though. I was actually after a 207 GTi but the timing chain horror stories and French car mechanics steered me off those.
It has Peugeots early propriety DPF cleaning additive system (EOLYS Fluid) which seems to last a good 200000km's before requiring top up.
The fuel filter also has a water separator built into it which you are supposed to drain every 10000km's. This is what protects the injectors. It is actually very easy to do on these 1.6 HDi motors. Its is just a screw which releases all the fuel + water. Re-do it and manually re-prime the pump with the squishy bladder next to it. You also change the filter once vey 40000kms. They can be had really cheap, I bough a Bosch one for $45.
The only other important thing is engine oil. These have require the rarer C2 grade oil and have a Pug spec on top of it which is very uncommon in Australia. Luckily the Factory fill Total Synthetic oil can be had cheap from the wholesalers. Last time I got 3x 5L Bottles shipped from Perth to Sydney for $140. The Sydney wholesaler won't even sell to a lot of mechanical workshops, go figure.
I believe that 1.6L Pug diesel is also in the Fiesta TDCI's. They use the same fuel filter but I also believe in Fords wisdom they removed the manual fuel primer making changing the filter a special tool job. They seem to suffer more DPF issues and I gather that is because they don't have an additive cleaning system.

[sgt_doofey]

The PSA group (Peugeot and Citroën) make a lot of different diesel engines for a lot of different manufacturers.
We've got a 2006 Peugeot 307 2.0L HDi that's just ticked over the 200,000km mark.
We had a problem with the depollution system (includes the FAP) way back when we had a warranty. It was a faulty exhaust pressure sensor that time.
Apart from that, it's been faultless and we're still yet to have to top up the EOYLS fluid. Still plenty of life in that.

Helps that we do a lot of country driving so the car can run its regeneration cycle.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[IanC]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Well, after 5 weeks and about 50 phone calls later, we got the DPF replaced under post- Warranty. Unbelievable.
I've got a log of every phone call made to Mazda, around 2 weeks of not being able to get through to the relevant case manager, case managers being changed, case manager "away from desk at the moment" or "in training for the next couple of days"- must've been training for the 100m sprint away from the phone. Followed by another 2 weeks of being told that the delay was due to the dealership who actually had the vehicle not doing the second engine scan that was requested.
I suspect the whole airbag recall made them just say "bugger it- replace the dpf & we'll call it a day," as I suspect the costs of impending recalls will dwarf my claim.

Interesting to note: the original report from Mazda was that the DPF had failed due to "excessive fuel delivery" from a faulty injector. They did sweet bugger- all about the injectors, and just replaced the dpf and a flow sensor. Surely this is just kicking the can down the road? we've got a 2 year/ 40,000 km Warranty on the new DPF, and if a faulty injector killed the last DPF before 74,000 km then I can't see this one lasting long at all.
I guess I'll have to give them a call and point this out to them, and advise them it's in their best interests to replace the injectors. But my overall impression of Mazda is that they don't actually look at any information that's given to them. I wrote a massive email with a stack of questions that nobody has deigned to reply to. The initial quote was quite clear that the injectors were the problem, and the DPF was just a casualty, but when I hit them up about the injectors their response seemed more like "we're giving you the DPF; isn't that enough? You should be really grateful." They also stated that they had no information to indicate there was anything wrong with the injectors, which boggles the mind.
So there's a second battle with Mazda looming, but at least we've got the car back for now. That was a rotten bloody 5 weeks.

Mazda diesel injector problems are a well known fault. They can cause total engine failure. See:
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbyca.../?section=good
Scroll down to the bad section and see lots of reports of major diesel engine problems caused by the injectors.