MOTOR Feb 2015: XR8 vs SSV Redline + XR6T vs SS

[Maka]

Well said Iggle Piggle! Can we agree, if Ford had spent extra dosh on better oem tires for the last XR8, the track test result's would be in the Falcon XR8's favour?

Wheel's & Motor et al', track test please between these two adversaries at Phillip Island same tires & tire professional's looking after those duties not you ok....

cheer's, Maka

[Chopped]

I think we all agree that we won't accept the track results until the XR8 does the fastest lap. Then we can all say what a fair and great review it was.

[SensationFG8]

Originally Posted by duaned

Research the GTS. It can more than handle the extra grunt and perform likewise. I assume the 6.2L blown GM V8 engine is heavier than Fords possibly as well.

I didn't realise the gts ran the same suspension as the redline...

[graphicgoose]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

I didn't realise the gts ran the same suspension as the redline...

Clubby does and has 340kw with the SV pack...be interesting to compare its lap times, although it does have better brakes and better tyres again.

[701let]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

Clubby does and has 340kw with the SV pack...be interesting to compare its lap times, although it does have better brakes and better tyres again.

You would think the SV Clubby would better the redline by quite a margin. Let alone the SS, xr8 and xr6...

[CQB-241]

Lot of hot air expended on this.

Some here clearly won't believe until a Ford "wins". May need to toughen up a bit.

Some here clearly believe the Holdens are better cars. Depends on what you are after.

IMO a car "as delivered" without modification bar no-cost adjustment (eg fuel loads, tyre pressures) is how they should be tested if determining which one is the best at a particular test when "stock".

When a test with a professional non-manufacturer aligned curcuit driver with good condition hot OEM tyres at the correct pressures is run we will know the best track car as sold off the showroom floor.

When a test with an experienced quarter miler with good condition OEM tyres at correct pressures with ambient temperature under 30 degrees then we will know the best in a straight line.

Rest is conjecture.

Before cries of "bias", I have a manual XR8 on order, not necessarily because it is the "better car" (in SSV vs XR8) but because it is more exciting (I like old-school muscle cars but need someting more practical), IMO looks and sounds better "stock" and it is the last (and likely the best) of an iconic Australian-made line. Wont criticise anyone getting a SS/SSV, but I suspect I will be less likely to mistake mine for someone else's in the carpark and as cars advance the more individual car will be the most revered.

[mtbkym01]

I didn't know Ford, or Holden for that matter, manufactured tyres?

[CQB-241]

Originally Posted by mtbkym01

I didn't know Ford, or Holden for that matter, manufactured tyres?

LOL. Like much of the car's parts, outside suppliers provide the bulk of OEM parts. I see what you are angling at but what the car comes with new is what they should be tested with if testing "stock" and that is the argument here.


I will replace the original tyres with the best available for my needs when the time comes, who wouldn't? When changing tyres for performance, this is no less a mod than adding boost or modding intake, exhaust or ECU....ceases to be "stock"/"as supplied".

Be great if the extra $1K proposed RRP was for better spec rubber but expect that is a forlorn hope.....

[WPR1]

For me (and the reason I chose a GT) was because it didnt have a rock hard track setup, so I am not surprised the SS was quicker around a track.

[kypez]

Any SSV Redline owners have the time to let us know what the stock pressures are for the car (as per Holden) please?

Also, interestingly, I've noticed the SSV has a higher sidewall than the XR8 tyres.

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by WPR1

For me (and the reason I chose a GT) was because it didnt have a rock hard track setup, so I am not surprised the SS was quicker around a track.

Does the SS have a rock hard track setup?

[Smoke Pursuit]

The Ssv redline is firm and direct...

[kypez]

Also, just went through the gear ratios on the SSV VS XR8. I can see why the Manual VS manual the SSV was slower. The Auto of the SSV is shorter than the XR8 and the taller XR8 Auto wouldnt be that great around a track even with the power advantage. Can keep it in the required rev range easier

[Vedran]

Originally Posted by kypez

Any SSV Redline owners have the time to let us know what the stock pressures are for the car (as per Holden) please?

Also, interestingly, I've noticed the SSV has a higher sidewall than the XR8 tyres.

36 PSI front and rear.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vedran

36 PSI front and rear.

Thank you for that!

Explains even more now. XR8 is 38F and 41R. Better for road use vs track use.

It's starting to make more sense (for those who want to discuss it unbiased).

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

When the tyres on a press car are shagged, why do they fit a new set of the OEM tyres? Why don't they fit stickier tyres before handing the cars back to the press for evaluations of stock performance?

I know tyres are consumable and can be replaced with whatever suits the owner, but why are we assuming the owner of the Falcon stumps up more coin for some decent quality tyres?

Why don't we assume he/she is a tight **** who replaces their OEM Dunlops with the cheapest tyres they can get off eBay that have a tread pattern shaped like chicken-in-a-biscuit?

Or would it be best if we assume the Ford guy fits Nittos and the Holden guy fits retreads?

We don't know who will fit what to which car for whatever reason in the future, so maybe the easiest way is to continue to compare the cars in stock factory trim.

I agree tyres are consumable and are an easy fix - but isn't that the point, that some feel they need to "fix" the stock grip levels of the XR8 (just as some feel they need to "fix" the stock power output of their SS/SSV/Redline)?

Some things might be easier to "fix" than others, but is that justification to change OEM equipment on only one vehicle to address its (perceived) shortcomings while leaving the other completely stock?

For the record, I don't think the Redline is slow but I don't think it has the straight line speed of the XR8. Likewise, I don't think the XR8 is an ill-handling no brakes bucket, but I don't think it handles or brakes as good as the Redline. Just because each car has shortcomings when compared to the other does not mean each car sucks in that area - it just means the other car does that particular thing better. Something that is great is great...compare it to something that is exceptional and it will lose the comparison, but that does not mean it is no longer great.

If someone can pay $60k on a new car, they can afford $2k for a decent set of tyres on their ride mate.

You make an interesting point though regarding what owners would change on their new cars and I would think warranty would be their number 1 concern when "modding" their car to improve performance.

I just priced up a set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports for a 2014 XR8 and the total came to $1994 @ tyresales.

The Walkinshaw 310 package (with full factory warranty) for the SSV puts you out of pocket $6,500, but I'll bet it still won't be as fast as the XR8 in a straight line but an absolute weapon on the track.

Ultimately depends on what the customer is after and whether they have blue-blood coursing through their veins

For me personally, if a tyre change still means the XR8 is slower than the SSV around a small track like Winton, then so be it, I still think it is the better all-round car.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Bent8

If someone can pay $60k on a new car, they can afford $2k for a decent set of tyres on their ride mate.

I just priced up a set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports for a 2014 XR8 and the total came to $1994 @ tyresales.

Don't worry about the expensive stuff. Cheap set of Nitto Invo's (going on the GTF soon) will see the XR8 be a lot quicker for around $1200

[Iggle Piggle]

I get all that re replacement tyres, I really do. All I am saying is these comparisons are between new stock factory vehicles, so these comparisons will always be with the tyres they leave the factory with.

A review of second hand vehicles is more difficult as then it is as you say - the cars will have whatever tyres have been thrown at them by their owner, as evidenced by the couple of posts above talking of Nittos in one and Michelins in the other.

Comparison between new cars but with their stock tyres replaced by aftermarket - you'll end up in a tyre test to determine which brand to go with rather than a vehicle test.

Even then, couple of posters have already said different tyres suit different cars/drivers - what if the tyres that suit the Commodore do not suit the Falcon (or vice versa)? You could test them using the same tyres but one car could still be disadvantaged by the tyre selection.

Put on whatever tyres suit each car best and then you will still have complaints that one car had better rubber than the other, even though both had the best tyres available in whatever category your new car different tyres test permits.

So just seems easier to test them with the tyres they come with - the tyres that would be on it if you buy it. That way someone could actually get something out of the review in terms of a car's grip etc, rather than learn how the new car would perform on a select set of tyres that it is not sold with and ultimately might not be their choice for replacement tyres when the time comes.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

I get all that re replacement tyres, I really do. All I am saying is these comparisons are between new stock factory vehicles, so these comparisons will always be with the tyres they leave the factory with.

A review of second hand vehicles is more difficult as then it is as you say - the cars will have whatever tyres have been thrown at them by their owner, as evidenced by the couple of posts above talking of Nittos in one and Michelins in the other.

Comparison between new cars but with their stock tyres replaced by aftermarket - you'll end up in a tyre test to determine which brand to go with rather than a vehicle test.

Even then, couple of posters have already said different tyres suit different cars/drivers - what if the tyres that suit the Commodore do not suit the Falcon (or vice versa)? You could test them using the same tyres but one car could still be disadvantaged by the tyre selection.

Put on whatever tyres suit each car best and then you will still have complaints that one car had better rubber than the other, even though both had the best tyres available in whatever category your new car different tyres test permits.

So just seems easier to test them with the tyres they come with - the tyres that would be on it if you buy it. That way someone could actually get something out of the review in terms of a car's grip etc, rather than learn how the new car would perform on a select set of tyres that it is not sold with and ultimately might not be their choice for replacement tyres when the time comes.

No problem with what you say. I was just mentioning if we did go the change in tyres route.

But I still think the problem is the pressures...

[mtbkym01]

Ok, next observation, are the tyres manufactured to a specification from Ford or Holden, or are they an off the shelf item, and what other components in these cars are off the shelf items v's manufacturers specifications?

[CQB-241]

Originally Posted by kypez

No problem with what you say. I was just mentioning if we did go the change in tyres route.

But I still think the problem is the pressures...

Probably a bit of both. But as I won't be circuit racing my streeter I won't feel cheated when hear the supercharger whine, hear the crackle over 3K RPM and compare the underbonnet areas to GM guys with TMNT backs on show.

[701let]

Originally Posted by kypez

No problem with what you say. I was just mentioning if we did go the change in tyres route.

But I still think the problem is the pressures...

Mate it's 2 out of 2 track and 1/4 mile reviews telling us that the xr8 is far quicker to 400m and the SSV is far quicker around a track... That's not so bad is it?

Stop clutching at straws.. Xr8 better far better for outright grunt. Ssv far better chassis balance and cornering

You can throw any tyres you want at that xr8 and it won't be better than that ssv

[mtbkym01]

I know I'm new here, and don't want to step on toes but OMG, this is ridiculous, saying one is far better than the other at either discipline is madness. How many tracks do people drive on, on their way to work etc etc...Surely we can accept that both (all) cars are great value for money, and something that we are all gonna miss. I think there is more than one camp on here clutching at straws as well

[kypez]

Originally Posted by 701let

Mate it's 2 out of 2 track and 1/4 mile reviews telling us that the xr8 is far quicker to 400m and the SSV is far quicker around a track... That's not so bad is it?

Stop clutching at straws.. Xr8 better far better for outright grunt. Ssv far better chassis balance and cornering

You can throw any tyres you want at that xr8 and it won't be better than that ssv

I see... 0.3 second difference at Wakefield and I'm clutching at straws about tyre pressures?!

As I've said, was quicker in the GT (very similar to the XR8) than SSV... I know whose "testing" I'll go with.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Chopped

I think we all agree that we won't accept the track results until the XR8 does the fastest lap. Then we can all say what a fair and great review it was.

That right there is about as real as it gets.

Honestly, the crap thrown around by some supporters is bloody embarrassing to say the least.

Let me get this right.
We've blamed the bloke behind the wheel.
We've blamed the track layout.
We've blamed the tyres.
We've blamed the tyre pressures.

All we're missing is for someone to tell us how the XR8 wins morally because Holden wasted more money...

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by CQB-241

When a test with a professional non-manufacturer aligned curcuit driver with good condition hot OEM tyres at the correct pressures is run we will know the best track car as sold off the showroom floor.

When a test with an experienced quarter miler with good condition OEM tyres at correct pressures with ambient temperature under 30 degrees then we will know the best in a straight line.

Rest .

Yeah but look what happened last time we all "trusted" the media with those simple little things on these stock oem equipped cars where nothing can be "tweaked".........They claimed the hsv as the most powerful Aussie car ever.

Soooo in come the professionals and prove that these clowns can't be trusted one bit, even with these simple stock oem equipped cars. As the FORD wiped the floor with its most powerful ever Aussie car title

I take these Holden biased test with a grain of salt knowing full well money rules the world.....Holden is the big dog around here and would never rule out anything sly going on to benifit the holdens.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Yeah but look what happened last time we all "trusted" the media with those simple little things on these stock oem equipped cars where nothing can be "tweaked".........They claimed the hsv as the most powerful Aussie car ever.

Soooo in come the professionals and prove that these clowns can't be trusted one bit, even with these simple stock oem equipped cars. As the FORD wiped the floor with its most powerful ever Aussie car title

I take these Holden biased test with a grain of salt knowing full well money rules the world.....Holden is the big dog around here and would never rule out anything sly going on to benifit the holdens.

Some people have very short memories...

[kypez]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

That right there is about as real as it gets.

Honestly, the crap thrown around by some supporters is bloody embarrassing to say the least.

Let me get this right.
We've blamed the bloke behind the wheel.
We've blamed the track layout.
We've blamed the tyres.
We've blamed the tyre pressures.

All we're missing is for someone to tell us how the XR8 wins morally because Holden wasted more money...

Unlike many of the armchair warriors, I spend hours driving these cars at the track and if you can't understand the importance of tyre pressures, then your input in this topic is moot (given we are discussing track times!).

The quality of posts here is appalling. If you don't track cars, you won't get it. All I'm looking for is a balanced argument with manual cars!

I'll concede the auto ssv might be quicker than the auto XR8, but till I see a manual against manual, I'm not jumping on the bandwagon just yet. Especially not with my own experience that says otherwise!

[LoudPipes]

[arronm]

True about the most powerful Aussie car. BUT what do you think HSV will do with the last GTS

Ford and FPV have fired their shots. I bet holden and HSV up power enough to go out on top

And they easily can as the car is engineered to handle the extra power